Introduction [12:03] Yesterday Demain: Hello everyone＃ in a couple of minutes, we will be discussing Second Life as a Gaming Platform: ※challenges & opportunities§, with an array of prestigious speakers＃ [12:03] Yesterday Demain: Our moderator tonight will be Akela Talamasca, of Massively fame ;) who has kindly accepted the mission＃ [12:03] Akela Talamasca: Heyo [12:04] Yesterday Demain: Akela, please join me on stage＃ [12:04] Yesterday Demain: So, let me call our speakers＃ in no particular order＃ [12:04] Yesterday Demain: Let＊s welcome Cyphien Heart [12:05] Yesterday Demain: Piegaro Riel＃ [12:05] Yesterday Demain: Kiana Writer＃ [12:06] Yesterday Demain: and hopefully if all goes well＃ Hamlet Au [12:06] Yesterday Demain: Cyphien Heart is a computer graphics designer by profession. He currently runs the New Blue Horizons company. He also created and manages the Second Life Simboarding Association. [12:06] Yesterday Demain: Piegaro Riel (aka Romain Piegay in RL) is part of whosegame.com and the Orange Island teams within Orange Labs / France T谷l谷com R&D. [12:06] Cyphien Heart: Hello all [12:07] Yesterday Demain: Come sit on those nice little orange cubes :) [12:07] Akela Talamasca: Hey Piegaro! [12:07] Yesterday Demain: He additionally leads a collaborative research project aiming to create a flexible and scalable virtual world platform, Solipsis, in partnership with RealXtend. [12:07] Akela Talamasca: Hi Cyphien! [12:07] Yesterday Demain: Kiana Writer is the CEO and Game Manager of the SL company Beyond Imagination＃ [12:07] Yesterday Demain: ＃a crew composed of Kiana, Lynidin Tzara, Maya Platthy, Loch Harlan, Waghorne Truss. With their hit game, the Zodiac Killer, they have taken a serious step forward in the development of games for Second Life. [12:08] Akela Talamasca: Hello Kiana! [12:08] Kiana Writer: Hey all ;) [12:08] Yesterday Demain: We＊re here to discuss Second Life as a Gaming Platform: ※challenges & opportunities§, [12:08] Yesterday Demain: Please let Akela moderate and ask the questions [12:08] Jade Lily: there he is! [12:08] Akela Talamasca: Here＊s Hamlet! [12:08] Yesterday Demain: If you have questions for the speakers, please IM Jade or myself [12:09] Hamlet Au: Hi all, sorry I＊m late, SL hiccups. [12:09] Kiana Writer: Hi Hamlet [12:09] Yesterday Demain: Hiya Hamlet＃ [12:09] Adri Saarinen: So if you＊ve got friends who are having trouble getting in, just keep trying! :) [12:09] Yesterday Demain: And finally, Hamlet Au＃ [12:09] Hamlet Au: Yeah, I was stuck in the Vietnam memorial. [12:10] Akela Talamasca: ＆course, in SL, that could mean he was literally stuck in the memorial [12:10] Hamlet Au: Both Akela! [12:10] Yesterday Demain: Akela, the stage is yours :) [12:10] Akela Talamasca: I knew it! [12:10] Peter Newell claps [12:10] Adri Saarinen applauds! [12:11] Akela Talamasca: Well, hello everyone! Just to talk a bit about my background, I did graphics for Atari games back in the day, and nowadays I mostly blog professionally about games＃ [12:11] Seraphina Reymont: Nerd. =P [12:11] Akela Talamasca: ＃both for Massively.com, a blog about MMOs, and the new BigDownload, in which I write a weekly column about casual games [12:11] Jade Lily: and occasionally moderates random panel discussions [12:11] Akela Talamasca: I go where they give me kibble [12:12] Akela Talamasca: oh, I also used to write for Second Life Insider, before it got absorbed by Massively.com [12:12] Jade Lily worries that Akela is going to bill her later. [12:12] Akela Talamasca: at any rate, hello, let＊s get started! Making games in SL [12:12] Akela Talamasca: First question, panelists, and perhaps the biggest: Why make games in Second Life? [12:12] Akela Talamasca: Cyph, let＊s go with you first, if you would [12:13] Cyphien Heart: Well＃ SL offers such malleability and possibilities; the means to make them come true are countless. [12:13] Cyphien Heart: It＊s easy to come up with ideas and try them out. If it doesn＊t work it＊s not so costly [12:14] Cyphien Heart: There＊s also all the social aspect＃ mixed with user content it＊s just an awsome environment [12:14] Cyphien Heart: And unlike most MMOs, it＊s limitless in scope [12:15] Akela Talamasca: Piegaro, would you like to add to that? [12:15] piegaro Riel: hmm yep, Cyp is right, it＊s a kind of authoring tool allowing you to create content and concentrate your ※scripting skills§ on behaviours only [12:15] piegaro Riel: and not on the whole game engine, 3D, network, physics and so forth.. [12:16] Akela Talamasca: True, as a built-in system, it＊s hard to go wrong [12:16] Akela Talamasca: Kiana, have you found this to be true? [12:17] Kiana Writer: I have ;) I believe the possibilities for games in Second Life are endless [12:17] Kiana Writer: It＊s the best place to show your creativity to a large audience. It＊s easy to have an international team and work together fast to create something that wouldn＊t be so easy or fast in real life. [12:18] Akela Talamasca: Yeah, and the tools are known quantities, making planning your game easier as well. Hamlet, what＊s your take on SL as a good place to test out game ideas? [12:18] Hamlet Au: I＊d say you should first think of the reasons *not* to make games in SL, because there＊s a lot of them that the platform simply can＊t support just yet. That＊s probably why Tringo has so far been the only break out success. [12:20] Hamlet Au: And that was in 2004. It＊s very true that it＊s great as a prototyping platform, but I＊ve seen too many really really great projects get undone by problems or drawbacks with SL, or even upgrades that undermine the developer＊s progress. [12:20] Patchouli Woollahra: lack of a lot of optimisations that other MMOs and Virtual worlds can take advantage of means most of our stuff runs half as fast, more often than not as well. [12:20] Akela Talamasca: At this time I＊ll invite our panelists to feel free to interrupt me if any of you have something you＊d like to say [12:21] Hamlet Au: Now that said, there＊s still a lot of great potential, I＊m only cautioning that developers come here with those drawbacks in mind, and spend as much time planning how to market and distribute the game, as the game itself. [12:21] Kiana Writer: I＊m curious about the drawbacks and problems that Hamlet is talking about, what are they? [12:21] Akela Talamasca: That＊s actually the next question [12:21] Akela Talamasca: You prescient being, you [12:21] Yesterday Demain: ;) [12:21] Kiana Writer: lol [12:22] Hamlet Au: A perfect example happened when I was at Linden, and I helped put together the 2005 Game Developer contest. The winner made this super awesome game called Primmies, sorta 3D Lemmings, and I thought it was gonna be huge, but then, a Linden update changed the way collision detection was handled, and uh, his game died. [12:22] Akela Talamasca: I remember that [12:22] Kiana Writer: So far nothing has been impossible for us, well.. except the Second Life issues that we can＊t control.. such as region logouts, reboots, teleporting or search disruptions, or lagging and crashing, but creation wise.. [12:23] Akela Talamasca: and those are huge concerns [12:23] Hamlet Au: Now a lot of these problems should be ameliorated when the new scripting system gets implemented, but I＊d defer to Qarl or another Linden I see in the audience on that. [12:24] piegaro Riel: for sure, doing anything with LSL is a bit of a challenge.. [12:25] Hamlet Au: I think that＊s why a lot of the successful games depend as much on community conversation as the game ending, as with Midian每 a lot of the gameplay is finessed in chat, so it＊s just as much improv acting as it is an MMO, in my sense. [12:25] Hamlet Au: ※as the game engine§ I mean. [12:25] Kiana Writer: It sounds to me that the problems arise when you try to bring games outside Second Life in here.. but if you create the games for SL inside here.. [12:26] Akela Talamasca: Cyph is taking a deeeep breath [12:26] Akela Talamasca: In the MMO world, lag and disconnects can seriously adversely affect a player＊s initial experience, causing them not to want to return. Do you guys see any good ways to ameliorate this in SL? Perhaps designing around these concerns? [12:27] Cyphien Heart: You have to make do with what works and focus a lot on the social part. [12:27] Hamlet Au: That＊s really in the hands of the Linden gods, you can＊t control crashing. Maybe a good way is to design gameplay which *assumes* crashing. [12:28] Cyphien Heart: Trying to compete with high performance PC games is out of the question at the moment [12:28] Kiana Writer: or create games, where it doesn＊t matter if you crash, you can carry on where you were left [12:28] piegaro Riel: Passively multiplayer games ! [12:28] Hamlet Au: It＊s never gonna be a head to head competition anyway. People come here from other MMOs *after* they get frustrated by the lack of freedom in traditional MMOs. [12:29] Hamlet Au: WoW is training wheels for the metaverse, baby. SL is the big boy pants. [12:29] Kiana Writer: I agree with Cyphien, that＊s the reason we＊re mainly concentrating on puzzle style games, that require more brain action than actual moving around [12:29] Akela Talamasca: Last year the Electric Sheep Company had a hit with the tie-in game for I Am Legend, which acted like an FPS mixed with RPG elements. So it can be done [12:30] piegaro Riel: Agree with kiana, it definitely suitable for games with a small degree of interactivity like puzzle game. ※One button§ games are perfect [12:30] Hamlet Au: Totally, Piegaro. [12:30] piegaro Riel: Tringo was a one-button game, no? [12:30] Hamlet Au: More or less, yeah. [12:30] Cyphien Heart: Well you can make moving games, that＊s what we＊ve done. But the gaming events we run are as much social as they are thumb candy and if something breaks we laugh. [12:31] Cold Spitteler: ive seen a 3D version of bomberman in SL [12:31] Yesterday Demain: You＊ve experienced adapting games in SL, Piegaro, with Whosegame＃ Can you tell us a little more about that experience? [12:32] piegaro Riel: yes, we＊ve try to adapt automatically 2D flash games to 3D in-world version [12:32] piegaro Riel: Some screenshots here＃ [12:32] Akela Talamasca: If we take the idea that SL *can* host virtually any type of gameplay, should the faster-paced games even be tried, lag and all? Is a poor experience compared to typical PC games worth having, just as a proof of concept? [12:33] Cold Spitteler: i think the immersive environment makes up for the lack of stability.. you＊re ※in§ the game [12:34] piegaro Riel: The conclusion is that Third Person Games are not very handy for the gamer. it＊s pretty impossible to control precisely the avatar in an enjoyable way.. [12:34] Hamlet Au: I see some great FPS style game play with the various space navigators, they even make pwner-style videos of the gameplay, but again, I think it＊s more like playing in the backyard with guns you made out of Legos每 it＊s less about a fully tight gameplay experience, than it is about enjoying the creativity before lag or whatever slows down the game. [12:35] Cyphien Heart: But the people are still having fun. [12:35] Akela Talamasca: So would our panelists say that an important element of any game is player-to-player interaction? [12:36] Cyphien Heart: Absolutely. That＊s what SL is all about [12:36] Hamlet Au: Yeah, that＊s the main point. [12:36] Akela Talamasca: and yet Tringo was a single-player game, no? [12:36] Akela Talamasca: argubly the most successful SL-related game of all time [12:36] Cyphien Heart: It was played in groups, chatted about, people shared their scores and passion [12:37] Kiana Writer: We are aiming to give each player an experience, lure them into a mystery that they get to unravel either alone, or with friends, if they prefer it that way. Our goal is to create a whole atmosphere around the games＃ people seems to love the comeback of point and click games ;) [12:37] Hamlet Au: Look, this is where the game industry is going, they＊re starting to toy with user-generated content, they know that the industry besides the occasional GTA blockbuster is rapidly and dramatically changing. The real problem for Linden is that professional game developers are making systems with better UI and are more optimized for game making每 witness Raph Koster＊s Metaplace and Three Rings＊ Whirled. [12:38] Aargle Zymurgy: ok, pardon for interrupting, but I＊m sensing a lot of discrepencies between how much people interact in gaming versus playing 1-player games. [12:38] Aargle Zymurgy: or at least, in the game-maker＊s estimations of this. [12:38] Gryff Richard: *exactly Aargle :) [12:39] Cyphien Heart: If someone wants to play a solo game, then CD-Rom based or even free web based games still provide more thumb candy for your time and money＃ For the time being. [12:39] Akela Talamasca: Yes, there can be, and the challenge is how to get both types of players interested [12:39] Aargle Zymurgy: well, that was my definite frustration as a noob: finding people to compete with in things. [12:39] Patchouli Woollahra: ditto: I wound up sinking it into two months of wall to wall lessons on wrangling SL :D [12:40] Kiana Writer: you can search for game groups - although the search doesn＊t always work ;) [12:40] Aargle Zymurgy: and I＊m taking in consideration Doc＊s difficulty finding competitors, my partner Lamorna＊s challenge in finding chess/backgammon players, and so forth. [12:40] Akela Talamasca: That brings me to my next question, Kiana＃ GET OUT OF MY MIND [12:40] Kiana Writer: lol [12:40] Kiana Writer: hun, I can＊t help it.. you＊re too close [12:40] Hamlet Au: Good point, that＊s actually something I clamored for at LL每 a multiplayer game channel like Xbox Live for SL, so you can find who＊s available to play what and where and when. That＊s STILL the big killer app for gaming in SL. [12:40] Aargle Zymurgy: yes, Go and Bridge are all available here＃ try getting players [12:41] Hamlet Au: Forget making games here, make a GAME NETWORK for gamers, and the games will follow. [12:41] Aargle Zymurgy: I＊ve taken steps at my club for providing ways to offer challenges. that works to a degree. [12:41] Cold Spitteler: the problem with doing remote multiplayer games is the instability of remote object communications [12:41] Kiana Writer: game groups＃ but the group limit could be higher.. [12:41] Akela Talamasca: And I prolly broadcast too loudly, too. At any rate, sometimes, as Kiana says, the Search function doesn＊t bring up the sort of results you＊re looking for＃ what＊s the best way to spread the word about a new game in SL? [12:41] Gryff Richard: *so is chess ＃ was a pawn in a 32 ppl chess set :) [12:42] Kiana Writer: word of mouth.. advertising is so easy here [12:42] Patchouli Woollahra: Only for more mundane, SL-specific games. [12:43] Patchouli Woollahra: I＊ve seen people convene a game of Greedy Greedy in under five minutes from scratch without resorting to friends. [12:43] Akela Talamasca: But those people already knew about the game [12:43] Kiana Writer: you just need to start advertising in time, to attract the players to the game [12:43] Hamlet Au: Here＊s a question I＊m interested in每 how many non-casual/Tringo-style SL games have a user base over 1000? There＊s Tiny Empires, the mini-MMOs like Midian and Angels, what else? [12:43] Aargle Zymurgy: well, the presence of Doc＊s game surprised me. Several friends and I looked for some time to find something like it. [12:44] Patchouli Woollahra: DarkLife has a similar register though it＊s been partially pruned by recent upgrades and upheavals. [12:44] Cold Spitteler: so far with small distribution we have had over 400 unique players [12:44] Aargle Zymurgy: well, dunno if Zyngo counts, but there are over 700 places that turn up if you search it. [12:44] Gryff Richard: http://picasaweb.google.com/bboomslang/AvatarChess [12:45] Akela Talamasca: How many of our panelists are actively playing SL games other than their own? [12:45] Patchouli Woollahra: As a former games studies researcher, may I make a point? ANYTHING can become a game if you impose your own silly little twisted rules on it. [12:45] Hamlet Au: Golfing as well, that has a big fan base doesn＊t it? [12:45] Cyphien Heart: The thing is that to attract and keep more people interested you＊d have to invest in major developpement. [12:45] Cold Spitteler: or the 7Seas Fishing game [12:46] Patchouli Woollahra: Cold: that＊s not a really good example of the long term development we＊re talking about. Try Neo-Realms. [12:47] Patchouli Woollahra: Four years, 4 major system upgrades＃ they just ripped the heart out of their rewards system and added a new one that drastically reduces the load they impose on Second Life. Free to play or fee to pay? [12:47] Akela Talamasca: A question about fees for our panelists: Of those of you who are running games, are any of you charging fees to play? Like a recurrent fee? [12:47] Kiana Writer: absolutely not, games should be free for the players [12:48] Csven Concord: ※should be§? [12:48] Akela Talamasca: If games are free for the players, then how is development funded? And is this free-to-play model going to be sustainable in the long run? [12:48] Eric Rice: heh [12:48] Patchouli Woollahra: It＊s a lovely sentiment Kiana has. just one problem. ※Servers should be free for the residents§ doesn＊t exactly work. [12:48] Patchouli Woollahra: No free lunch. Plenty of Freelunches in SL. [12:48] Kiana Writer: what we do is spread our games around the whole grid using sponsor locations, this is helping us keep the games free for players [12:49] Eric Rice: just like google! [12:49] Rowin Khalamov: What about the ＆cash shop＊ ideas Korean MMORPG game developers and most RP sims use in SL? Spell-fire would be a good example. [12:49] Eric Rice: advertising-based [12:49] Hamlet Au: I think Tringo＊s distribution/revenue model was as clever as the game itself每 sell franchises, then you＊ve created an incentive for Tringo owners to promote your game! [12:49] Patchouli Woollahra: Rowin: Darklife originally had such a system in place in its previous version. [12:50] Patchouli Woollahra: Unfortunately, Mark Busch was scared off by a heist conducted on it about a year back. US$700 in L$ stolen. [12:50] Akela Talamasca: A ton of MMOs work on this model, and also on the microtransactions scheme [12:50] Cyphien Heart: There＊s also a common culture of of ※Free§ for general amateur content in SL. When you come up with more developed solutions, people don＊t realise the time it takes but continue to assume it＊s free. [12:50] Akela Talamasca: Do you all see this as a mandate for SL games? Free forever? [12:52] Hamlet Au: I don＊t see that at all每 Tringo isn＊t free, at least in the sense you have to bet on it. [12:52] Kiana Writer: There are a lot of people here that love to play games, but simply don＊t have means to bring rl money in, at least we are keeping our games free for players [12:52] dandellion Kimban: not many other things in SL are free＃ why should games have to be? [12:53] Hamlet Au: The dominant model will probably be Freemium每 Free to play but you get more fun by paying some. You know, like SL itself. [12:53] piegaro Riel: If your game is time consuming enough ..and fun, why not make players pay for it? [12:53] Kiana Writer: that just wouldn＊t be fair for the players [12:53] Akela Talamasca: I believe that developers should be paid for their efforts, especially if they＊re running their game on their own island/server, which costs money [12:53] dandellion Kimban nods to hamlet [12:54] Aargle Zymurgy: gotta fund that US$300/mo somehow [12:54] Kiana Writer: when it comes to our games, the players actually do come back and want to make donations, simply because they enjoyed them so much [12:54] Patchouli Woollahra: game devs with no visible means of support worry and annoy me＃ if I have fun with their games. [12:54] Akela Talamasca: And that＊s laudable. I don＊t think we＊re talking about forcing hidden fees on players [12:54] Csven Concord: What is fair for devs? [12:54] Cyphien Heart: Yes but can donations finnance productions that hardcore gamers come to expect? [12:55] Akela Talamasca: If you make a payment model clear up-front, you let the players decide, and I believe most of them will decide to pay, if it＊s a worthwhile product in the first place [12:55] Kiana Writer: again, we charge sponsors, not the players [12:55] piegaro Riel: microtransaction + ad-funded or donations seems the best if I sum up? [12:55] Akela Talamasca: A great many people don＊t like to see advertisements; many would prefer to pay a fee to avoid that [12:55] Hamlet Au: Kiana, did you talk about your games yet? Or did I miss that? [12:55] Kiana Writer: what about the ppl without premium accounts, who just camp to get any ＆decent＊ clothes [12:56] Kiana Writer: Hamlet, we create puzzle styled mysteries ;) [12:56] Hamlet Au: Cool, Kiana. [12:57] piegaro Riel: sounds fun [12:57] Hamlet Au: oh wait, you did that Zodiac Killer game I blogged about, right? [12:57] Kiana Writer: Our current game is the Zodiac Killer, that has 343 players as I just checked [12:57] Hamlet Au: not bad, congrats! [12:57] Kiana Writer: you blogged it? :) [12:57] Hamlet Au: Yah! [12:57] Kiana Writer: great :) [12:57] Akela Talamasca: Cyph, Piegaro, would you take a few seconds to talk about your games as well? [12:58] Cyphien Heart: Sure＃ well I brought a few things to show. Simpler than explaining [12:58] Akela Talamasca: ooh! [12:58] Akela Talamasca: show and tell! [12:58] piegaro Riel: cool [12:58] Yesterday Demain: Simboarding! [12:59] Cyphien Heart: So here behind me is a Simboarding half-pipe [13:00] Cyphien Heart: And a board [13:00] Cyphien Heart: It＊s a cross between snowboarding and skateboarding, with a future-sport touch. [13:00] Cyphien Heart: You have a board which you control using the keyboard, like a vehicle really. Only you can execute multiple figures and combos and don＊t have to cross a lot of land to do so. [13:00] Cyphien Heart: It＊s a game of timing. What you＊d expect from Snowboarding in Real Life. [13:01] Cyphien Heart: For those who know Snowboarding, it＊s totally possible to pull an inverted backside 360 riding fakie. The possibilities are that vast. [13:01] Cyphien Heart: The boards might seem hard to handle at first, but they are fully configurable allowing boarders to tweak speed, turn, and gravitational force to their liking. [13:01] Akela Talamasca: any issues with lag? [13:01] Cyphien Heart: Tons. But we deal with it and see SL development going places [13:02] Cyphien Heart: Lag went down 25% with FS4 and Avatar rendering cost [13:02] Cyphien Heart: Mono is certainly promising [13:02] Cyphien Heart: Here is the link to the shop - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Blue%20Horizon/45/150/22 [13:02] Cyphien Heart: The SLSBA Arena is located at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Blue%20Horizon/34/174/22 [13:02] Cyphien Heart: And the pipe ARGs & SL versus the PC/Console world [13:02] Akela Talamasca: this actually brings me to my final question before opening this up to audience questions [13:03] Akela Talamasca: Do our panelists have any desire to turn their SL-based games into PC-based or console-based games outside of SL? [13:03] Cyphien Heart: If the occasion presented itself , sure why not [13:03] Akela Talamasca: What would that entail? [13:03] Eric Rice: Heh Akela you took my audience question ;) [13:03] Akela Talamasca: How would the occasion present itself? [13:04] Cyphien Heart: Signing a contract with a developement house and distribution [13:04] Eric Rice: well i meant to ask are any of you building your games on other platforms or in other worlds or is it only an SL-play [13:04] Akela Talamasca: have you been approached? [13:04] Hamlet Au: Shout out question: which SL game deserves to go the Tringo break-out to DS/PSP/Xbox/PS3/PC whatever? [13:04] Cyphien Heart: Not so far. Anyone interested? :) [13:05] Eric Rice: I＊d love to see Combat Cards on the DS [13:05] Patchouli Woollahra: Midgar! Oh wait, wouldn＊t that be incestuous? [13:05] dandellion Kimban: what is problem with that is how to expect to find a contract if you don＊t have players＃ and if you have players, you don＊t need contract [13:05] Hamlet Au: I can see that, Eric! [13:05] Hamlet Au: Midgar, you need a nice long chat with the people at Square about. :) [13:05] Akela Talamasca: and we can open this panel up to audience questions now [13:06] Akela Talamasca: not that it was ever really closed [13:06] Cyphien Heart: While SL is fantastic prototyping, I wouldn＊t use just SL popularity to determine RL sales [13:06] Cyphien Heart: The marketing rules are way different [13:07] Eric Rice: I＊m starting a game company as a result of being inspired with SL as a rapid prototype/comping tool每 not a viable platform. But I am curious if any of the game designers here are building their games on other platforms or in other worlds at the same time? [13:07] Patchouli Woollahra: long-term residents of SL would have a markedly different sense of paideia and ludus in SL compared to people whose only social life is in RL. [13:07] Cyphien Heart: No Eric. Not at this time [13:07] Kiana Writer: we＊re only building in SL, I don＊t know where to get anymore hours to build somewhere else ;) [13:07] Kiana Writer: but we are aiming of creating more ARGs [13:07] Akela Talamasca: yes, Cyph, good point; for those of you who read Massively, you may have noticed that there＊s not a lot of SL news on the front page; it＊s all going straight into a specific RSS feed, due to all the negative comments from non-SL gamers. This is something an SL-to-real life game would have to overcome as well [13:08] Patchouli Woollahra: An ARG that introduced newcomers to SL＊s aspects more thoroughly would be teh kickass. [13:08] Yesterday Demain: Interesting Kiana＃ Can you elaborate on your projects? [13:08] Kiana Writer: that＊s where we＊re currently heading [13:09] Kiana Writer: we are in the process of creating a website, making it a mystery, attracting non sl players to come and solve it here [13:09] Patchouli Woollahra: Shades of Majestic? [13:09] Patchouli Woollahra: and what happened? [13:09] Hamlet Au: If someone wants to rebuild it, let me know, I＊ll put you in touch with the developer. [13:09] Hamlet Au: During my Linden days, someone created a FUCKING GENIUS ARG called Eva. I mean that thing rocked, it could totally become a breakout success. [13:09] Akela Talamasca: I think LL should put up a section on the main site that features a different game every month [13:09] Cyphien Heart: Yes Akela, or more. I beleive it＊s done for music [13:09] Hamlet Au: Way better than Majestic, Patch, and I did some writing for Majestic. [13:10] Patchouli Woollahra: Ah yes＃ I blame idiots who can＊t tell the difference between a game and reality for screwing ARGs over. [13:10] Patchouli Woollahra: but then, that＊s kinda contradictory innit? A really good ARG makes its borders hard to see. [13:10] Eric Rice: ARGs are associated more and more with marketing [13:10] Eric Rice: so it has weird stigma [13:11] Patchouli Woollahra: the cost of running an ARG＃ with prerecorded phone calls and emails＃ [13:11] Patchouli Woollahra: wonder what it would be these days. [13:11] Hamlet Au: Patch, with Eva, the player base wasn＊t large enough to get a big enough audience; I think they also had some deployment issues. Platforms for making games [13:11] Akela Talamasca: A question for the audience: How many of you are making games? [13:11] Eric Rice raises hand, more or less [13:11] Aargle Zymurgy: I am. [13:11] Rowin Khalamov: I＊ve been playing around with the idea of making games, either RL or in SL. [13:11] Akela Talamasca: are these all SL-only games? [13:11] Cold Spitteler: Dirt and I are also developing a multiplayer game [13:12] Aargle Zymurgy: I develop games RL as well, but for the educational market. [13:12] Eric Rice: akela: no, however, i＊m investigating flash 3D [13:12] Basil Wijaya: I do the simboard competition scoreboard. I would like to have more details about the relation between players and scripters. For adapting the simboard to the H4, there were many communications and tests done with players feeback. [13:12] Eric Rice: because if SL can play flash someday [13:12] Csven Concord: I wouldn＊t call my project a game, but games will hopefully spin off. [13:12] Eric Rice: one shot development for web, consoles/web, virtual worlds [13:12] Lamorna Proctor puts her foot up [13:12] Patchouli Woollahra isn＊t doing a game per se, but she＊s working on a virtual pet in her spare time. [13:12] Hamlet Au: Adri, good point. Some kind of scavenger hunt game would be a great way to introduce SL to new users. Certainly better than what we got now. [13:12] Akela Talamasca: Oh man, a scavenger hunt would be great [13:12] Eric Rice: it＊s lower cost, higher returns, and scalable across markets. SL is too niche [13:13] Aargle Zymurgy: there IS a scavenger hunt game/group [13:13] Akela Talamasca: Eric, I wanted to talk to you about your game, by the way [13:13] Akela Talamasca: But not while I＊m up here, all official and stuff [13:13] Cyphien Heart: The search simply has to stop working on popularity. Simple as that. [13:13] Kiana Writer: Join the Zodiac Killer hunt ;) [13:13] Eric Rice: meet me in liberty city ;) [13:13] Aargle Zymurgy: has anyone tried the Pot Healer adventure? [13:14] Kiana Writer: yes [13:14] Patchouli Woollahra: Achievements to me have kind of degenerated into a sort of hat joke. [13:14] Hamlet Au: I have to disagree, Eric, much as I think SL needs work to develop into a full fledged game platform, Multiverse and others haven＊t shown much promise either, even less. You need a unified world to have a dedicated player base, I think that＊s where Multiverse or even Metaplace is gonna fall down on. [13:14] Csven Concord: unified world = www [13:14] Eric Rice: that＊s if you buy into the ＆world＊ concept being different from the ＆game＊ concept [13:14] Aargle Zymurgy: as I see things, the big problem is helping the noobs find the games we all provide and have them understand what＊s going on. [13:14] Akela Talamasca: Yes, Aargle, that＊s a huge problem [13:15] Aargle Zymurgy: frankly, I think it＊s our single biggest problem. [13:15] Hamlet Au: Corey at Multiverse was recently dogging on Philip like SL was a failed platform, and a well known developer asked aloud, Yeah, where＊s that Firefly MMO for Multiverse that got announced like two fricking years ago? There＊s a larger Firefly RPG community in SL. [13:15] Akela Talamasca: hahaha seriously, Hamlet? that＊s great [13:15] Patchouli Woollahra: Hamlet: agreed. I haz Cantonese poster. [13:15] Cyphien Heart: And the 50 avatar limit. Cause no matter how many people you reach＃ that＊s a hard one [13:15] Akela Talamasca: Totally, Cyph [13:15] Patchouli Woollahra: They actually released an official Firefly artbook in SL and RL simultaneously. [13:16] Akela Talamasca: What? Patch, do you have a link? [13:16] Eric Rice: i don＊t think those others are able to support true environments either [13:16] Patchouli Woollahra: I don＊t keep links to everything, Akela. [13:16] Eric Rice: i mean i have to worry about *distancing* the work in here as ＆an SL thing＊ in the real world [13:16] Patchouli Woollahra: if you want kawaii or ky00t, you come to me. Realistic, a lot of other people come to mind who are way better than me :D [13:17] Patchouli Woollahra: Neo-Realms has the same advantage. you don＊t even have to be in a official fishing camp to use the game tools. [13:17] Hamlet Au: how many ppl are playing Tiny Empires by the way? [13:17] Aargle Zymurgy: well, that＊s all great until you take your TE hud into a parcel with scripts off. [13:17] Patchouli Woollahra: I＊m a lapsed TE fellow. I found it was interfering with my PrimDocker. [13:18] Patchouli Woollahra: Aargle: Anything will die without scripts in SL. except static art. oh, and real people. [13:17] Eric Rice: games are a billion dollar biz＃ does the 3D enviro of SL meet a specific need, or is there another, faster, more affordable tech to use to deploy a game [13:17] Eric Rice: or is 3D just for the people/customers/players, what have you [13:18] Kiana Writer: What I＊ve discovered that once people come to sl, they prefer staying in sl, it＊s more effective to advertise in world than in blogs and forums outside sl [13:18] Akela Talamasca: it＊s like Metaplace, but fully 3D [13:19] Akela Talamasca: not whirled [13:19] Akela Talamasca: not smallworld [13:19] Csven Concord: kind fully 3D [13:19] Hamlet Au: oh, vast park [13:19] Hamlet Au: hmm [13:19] Csven Concord: Smallworld? [13:19] Akela Talamasca: the logo is a tree [13:19] Akela Talamasca: it＊s not a social＃ VASTPARK [13:19] Akela Talamasca: It looks really good [13:19] Akela Talamasca: much better than Metaplace [13:19] Hamlet Au: also, blue mars is supposed to have that deal as well [13:20] Patchouli Woollahra: Blue Mars is a dreadful joke. [13:20] Patchouli Woollahra: so far, it seems to be shaping up to be like a virtual mall. [13:20] Akela Talamasca: who could possibly run that thing? [13:20] piegaro Riel: Blue Mars is Cry Engine 2 + some content [13:20] Akela Talamasca: crysis engine, BAH [13:20] Eric Rice: heh i can run crysis but i can＊t run SL [13:20] Eric Rice: figure that one out [13:20] Eric Rice: crysis you need a small supercomputer to run [13:20] Hamlet Au: I don＊t know, I visited Blue Mars＊ Honolulu office, got the scoop, it＊s a pretty interesting model. [13:20] Patchouli Woollahra: Eventually, technology will progress to the point where you can get a crysis-capable computer＃ with your box of cornflakes. [13:21] Hamlet Au: http://gigaom.com/2008/02/19/blue-mars-second-life-with-pro-level-content/ [13:21] Akela Talamasca: It seems like it has legs, but people are already complaining bout the specs required just to run AoC well＃ [13:21] Akela Talamasca: sorry, i＊m a bad moderator [13:21] Patchouli Woollahra: Akela: People are complaining about EVERYTHING on AoC. [13:21] Hamlet Au: Their gamble is that people will have PCs to run it as they upgrade to new computers in the next few years. [13:21] Eric Rice: huge gamble [13:21] Eric Rice: unless they do a console play [13:22] Eric Rice: takes one console and one game to open up things like shoutcast and a *little* UGC [13:21] Akela Talamasca: Would our panelists like to say anything further? Anything you＊d like to, as they say, ※pimp§? [13:22] Patchouli Woollahra: Adri : agreed. so I wonder when Lightwave is going to start producing content properly for all these new metaverses. [13:23] Cyphien Heart: I brought a box of goodies in front of me＃ info, Ts, landmarks＃ feel free to click and enjoy :) [13:23] Akela Talamasca: nice, Cyph [13:23] Eric Rice: why is 3D hard here but it＊s not in the game space? [13:23] Hamlet Au: I＊m not sure, there may be a stumbling block for the majority of people and full 3D. [13:23] Hamlet Au: 10 million playing WoW is an impressive number, but that＊s far eclipsed by people playing 2.5D MMOs. [13:23] Kiana Writer: oh yes, we have an amazing new game coming out soon.. this is something SL hasn＊t seen yet, so join our group to be the first ones to know about it ;) [13:23] Akela Talamasca: Thank you, Kiana! [13:24] Hamlet Au: Habbo, Gaia, Runescape, Penguin, that＊s like 25 million active users right there. [13:24] Eric Rice: 2.5D ones that hamlet mentioned [13:24] Patchouli Woollahra: Hamlet: The Magic Kingdom MMO was also pretty popular. [13:24] Eric Rice: and also: focus [13:24] Hamlet Au: All 2.5D. [13:24] Eric Rice: have specificity [13:24] piegaro Riel: Habbo hotel for instance [13:24] Eric Rice: the biggest threat to endless worlds with no point are those WITH points [13:24] Hamlet Au: The market for 3D online MMOs is like, I think 15 million total, that＊s including WoW and SL. [13:25] Patchouli Woollahra: When Disney signalled they were going to pull the plug totally on it, the entire population was up in arms in a way you＊d expect from WoW players being told WoW was closing. [13:25] Eric Rice: disney customers are loyal and loud [13:25] Eric Rice: not loud in the SL customer way, but you know what i mean [13:25] Hamlet Au: how many active users for Magic Kingdom? [13:25] Patchouli Woollahra: Eric: I wouldn＊t know＃ the problem with worlds with points, is that they also have ludus. [13:25] Typhaon Nishi: imo, an MMO will only be successful in SL if it has a major brand name behind it already [13:25] Eric Rice: A linden can＊t even speak in public with a simple hello without getting four zillion people jumping down their throat about lag [13:25] Akela Talamasca: I＊d like to thank our panelists for taking the time to be here today 〞 you guys all have great things to show! And everyone keep an eye on Hamlet in New World Notes and GigaOM [13:25] Patchouli Woollahra: Disney doesn＊t seem interested in discussing their figures. [13:26] Eric Rice: Hamlet rocks on GigaOM <3 [13:26] Patchouli Woollahra: Eric: and this is why Lindens are so well fed. [13:26] CG Linden: Let me test that: ※Hello§ :) [13:26] Patchouli Woollahra: All those people, jumping down their throats. [13:26] Hamlet Au: Better yet, keep an eye on my book, *The Making of Second Life*! [13:26] Hamlet Au: http://www.amazon.com/Making-Second-Life-Notes-World/dp/0061353205/ref=pd_sim_d_title_9 [13:26] Eric Rice: heh ※Residents: It＊s what＊s for dinner§ [13:26] Akela Talamasca: And feel free to check out MMO coverage at Massively.com and my weekly casual games column at BigDownload [13:26] Cyphien Heart: Thank you Akela [13:26] Eric Rice: HEY CG FIX LAG ;) [13:26] Kiana Writer: Guys.. why are you concentrating on talking about games that are existing already? Why not focus on creating something completely new and different for sl? ;) [13:27] Hamlet Au: for example, Kiana? [13:27] Cyphien Heart: One is not stopping the other Kiana [13:27] Kiana Writer: I realize that, but we＊re not even trying to mimic any other games out there to compare ourselves against [13:27] Cyphien Heart: I don＊t think it＊s to compare. More about answering to a demand [13:27] Akela Talamasca: Jade, and the rest of the Orange team, thank you for giving me this opportunity! [13:27] Eric Rice: thanks akela, and panelists [13:28] Hamlet Au: Thanks for having us, Adri. [13:28] Kiana Writer: Thank you :) [13:28] Yesterday Demain: Thank you all :) [13:28] Akela Talamasca: I take my leave of the stage! [13:28] Gryff Richard: ?me claps :) [13:28] Hamlet Au: Hey, quick shout out to the audience每 if you got a game I should check out, please e-mail me! Hamlet@secondlife.com. And if you＊re intersted in writing about games, I＊m looking for someone to take Onder＊s place! [13:28] Gryff Richard applauds :) [13:29] piegaro Riel: thanks everyone :)